1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,240 Hi, everyone. This is Lucas Voss with Becker's 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:03,759 Healthcare. Thanks so much for tuning in to 3 00:00:03,759 --> 00:00:06,719 the Becker's Healthcare podcast series. Fantastic to have 4 00:00:06,719 --> 00:00:09,359 you. Today, we're talking about how accountable AI 5 00:00:09,359 --> 00:00:09,859 partnerships 6 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,500 build smarter health systems. 7 00:00:13,014 --> 00:00:15,574 And I'm very excited to be joined by 8 00:00:15,574 --> 00:00:16,394 Joe Benardello, 9 00:00:16,774 --> 00:00:20,154 chief growth officer and cofounder of IKS Health. 10 00:00:20,214 --> 00:00:21,574 Joe, thanks so much for being here today. 11 00:00:21,574 --> 00:00:23,654 It's great to have you. Well, thank you, 12 00:00:23,654 --> 00:00:26,454 Lucas. I appreciate it, and I appreciate you 13 00:00:26,454 --> 00:00:28,614 you taking the time and and inviting me 14 00:00:28,614 --> 00:00:32,030 to to join. Very interested in exploring this 15 00:00:32,030 --> 00:00:34,270 conversation together. It's going to be great. For 16 00:00:34,270 --> 00:00:35,710 those that might not know you, I wanna 17 00:00:35,710 --> 00:00:36,850 start off with introductions. 18 00:00:37,469 --> 00:00:39,070 Could you share a little bit about yourself 19 00:00:39,070 --> 00:00:40,770 and and your work in health care? 20 00:00:41,149 --> 00:00:42,590 Sure. So, you know, I think, 21 00:00:43,664 --> 00:00:44,405 my first, 22 00:00:45,104 --> 00:00:47,344 entry point in health care was, back in 23 00:00:47,344 --> 00:00:48,225 2002. 24 00:00:48,225 --> 00:00:50,225 And prior to that, I had worked in 25 00:00:50,225 --> 00:00:52,405 finance, technology, and transportation. 26 00:00:53,664 --> 00:00:55,424 And I think I was struck at that 27 00:00:55,424 --> 00:00:57,989 time when I looked at the efficiencies that 28 00:00:57,989 --> 00:01:00,489 other industries had gained through technology 29 00:01:01,350 --> 00:01:03,450 and then saw the state of health care. 30 00:01:03,590 --> 00:01:06,069 And that thinking really launched the start of 31 00:01:06,069 --> 00:01:09,144 our our company in in the 2006. 32 00:01:09,144 --> 00:01:11,144 We we opened our doors in in in 33 00:01:11,144 --> 00:01:12,284 2007. 34 00:01:13,064 --> 00:01:16,025 And the problem that we were trying to 35 00:01:16,025 --> 00:01:18,924 solve then is the problem that we're continuing 36 00:01:19,224 --> 00:01:21,545 to try and solve now. And namely, how 37 00:01:21,545 --> 00:01:22,685 do we enable 38 00:01:23,819 --> 00:01:25,040 position enterprises 39 00:01:26,140 --> 00:01:29,200 to meet the operating and demand challenges 40 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:31,980 that they're faced with today? And and I 41 00:01:31,980 --> 00:01:34,299 think the interesting part is we've been solving 42 00:01:34,299 --> 00:01:35,280 the same problem 43 00:01:35,900 --> 00:01:37,520 since 2007, 44 00:01:38,765 --> 00:01:41,885 really focused on on how are we able 45 00:01:41,885 --> 00:01:42,385 to 46 00:01:43,084 --> 00:01:44,224 make a differentiated 47 00:01:44,844 --> 00:01:47,905 value contribution that allows for a better impact 48 00:01:48,125 --> 00:01:48,784 at scale 49 00:01:49,405 --> 00:01:51,265 to quality of care, availability 50 00:01:51,644 --> 00:01:54,180 of care, and cost of care. But what 51 00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:57,219 has been really interesting is is that mission 52 00:01:57,219 --> 00:01:57,959 has remained 53 00:01:58,420 --> 00:01:59,719 eternal. That identity 54 00:02:00,420 --> 00:02:02,039 has has remained unquestioned. 55 00:02:02,739 --> 00:02:03,959 But what we do 56 00:02:04,340 --> 00:02:06,759 and how we do have continued to evolve. 57 00:02:07,325 --> 00:02:10,525 And because the challenges of health care are 58 00:02:10,525 --> 00:02:13,185 ever changing and reimbursement is so different, 59 00:02:13,965 --> 00:02:15,025 employee relationship 60 00:02:15,324 --> 00:02:16,705 to work is so different, 61 00:02:17,405 --> 00:02:18,305 labor availability, 62 00:02:18,925 --> 00:02:19,425 access, 63 00:02:20,685 --> 00:02:21,185 legislation, 64 00:02:21,949 --> 00:02:22,769 And then finally, technology 65 00:02:23,629 --> 00:02:24,530 is so different. 66 00:02:24,909 --> 00:02:26,129 So we see AI 67 00:02:26,430 --> 00:02:28,530 is is a tremendous enabler 68 00:02:29,709 --> 00:02:30,449 to allow 69 00:02:30,830 --> 00:02:32,129 impact at scale 70 00:02:32,509 --> 00:02:34,289 at a cost never before 71 00:02:34,590 --> 00:02:35,969 attainable for systems 72 00:02:36,865 --> 00:02:39,185 in order again to to to to better 73 00:02:39,185 --> 00:02:40,724 serve their patient population 74 00:02:41,104 --> 00:02:43,844 and doing so in a financially sustainable manner. 75 00:02:43,985 --> 00:02:45,745 And I think that's what I'm I'm really 76 00:02:45,745 --> 00:02:48,145 excited about. But but I feel like the 77 00:02:48,145 --> 00:02:48,645 same 78 00:02:49,185 --> 00:02:51,665 problem that we've been solving is is ever 79 00:02:51,665 --> 00:02:52,165 present 80 00:02:52,759 --> 00:02:54,620 and is gonna be needed internally. 81 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,099 How do we equip our health care providers 82 00:02:57,239 --> 00:02:58,379 to to do more, 83 00:02:58,840 --> 00:02:59,579 treat better, 84 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:02,439 and yet have quality of life and and 85 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:04,219 pursue their own joy through practice? 86 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,215 I was gonna say again, you've seen the 87 00:03:06,215 --> 00:03:07,895 sort of the full length of this. You 88 00:03:07,895 --> 00:03:10,215 mentioned 2007. Right? It's quite a bit of 89 00:03:10,215 --> 00:03:12,694 time. Right now, I feel like, though, the 90 00:03:12,694 --> 00:03:15,275 technology landscape in health care is 91 00:03:15,895 --> 00:03:18,215 possibly as crowded as we've seen it in 92 00:03:18,215 --> 00:03:20,700 a long time. It's increasingly crowded. It's It's 93 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:23,099 only going to get more in the the 94 00:03:23,099 --> 00:03:24,319 next year, I'd say. 95 00:03:24,620 --> 00:03:27,520 From your perspective right now, how can organizations 96 00:03:28,139 --> 00:03:28,639 identify 97 00:03:29,740 --> 00:03:31,980 the right partner for their needs, and what 98 00:03:31,980 --> 00:03:33,900 are some of the factors that you would 99 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:34,400 highlight 100 00:03:35,064 --> 00:03:36,764 that really matter most 101 00:03:37,064 --> 00:03:37,965 in that decision? 102 00:03:39,064 --> 00:03:40,824 Yeah. And I think that we're a bit 103 00:03:40,824 --> 00:03:43,305 in the age of parlor tricks, and we're 104 00:03:43,305 --> 00:03:45,485 moving into the age of value. And, 105 00:03:45,944 --> 00:03:47,544 you know, if you look at so many 106 00:03:47,544 --> 00:03:50,044 of these companies that have emerged, 107 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,699 their big risk point 108 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,979 is in identifying what they're going to develop. 109 00:03:56,759 --> 00:03:59,319 And then their big risk point is, am 110 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:01,419 I going to get this sale done? 111 00:04:02,519 --> 00:04:05,239 But these models are generated that as soon 112 00:04:05,239 --> 00:04:06,905 as the sale is complete, 113 00:04:07,685 --> 00:04:10,344 the IT vendor captures all of their value. 114 00:04:11,284 --> 00:04:14,084 And all of the risk now has moved 115 00:04:14,084 --> 00:04:15,224 on to that 116 00:04:15,685 --> 00:04:17,305 health care provider system 117 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:20,930 that is is looking for relief for for 118 00:04:20,930 --> 00:04:22,069 one or more problems. 119 00:04:22,689 --> 00:04:24,689 And and really what they're end up being 120 00:04:24,689 --> 00:04:25,670 sold are capabilities 121 00:04:26,370 --> 00:04:27,509 rather than solutions, 122 00:04:27,889 --> 00:04:30,550 and now they've assumed all the risk 123 00:04:31,475 --> 00:04:33,735 for capturing the value of those capabilities. 124 00:04:34,915 --> 00:04:36,535 So my my encouragement 125 00:04:37,154 --> 00:04:37,654 is 126 00:04:38,514 --> 00:04:39,254 look for 127 00:04:40,274 --> 00:04:41,495 IT that that 128 00:04:41,875 --> 00:04:42,855 solves problems 129 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:45,310 rather than just gives capabilities. 130 00:04:45,770 --> 00:04:48,509 And and I think that sometimes problem solving 131 00:04:48,649 --> 00:04:50,029 means going beyond 132 00:04:50,889 --> 00:04:51,629 a simple 133 00:04:52,410 --> 00:04:53,310 single solution 134 00:04:53,930 --> 00:04:56,430 and really addressing more of an interconnected 135 00:04:56,889 --> 00:04:57,389 workflow. 136 00:04:58,514 --> 00:04:59,495 And that interconnected 137 00:04:59,875 --> 00:05:02,214 workflow follows the patient journey. 138 00:05:02,754 --> 00:05:04,754 And if a vendor is able to make 139 00:05:04,754 --> 00:05:07,654 a value impact on an interconnected 140 00:05:08,675 --> 00:05:09,175 workflow, 141 00:05:09,794 --> 00:05:12,294 they can start to take financial accountability 142 00:05:13,330 --> 00:05:15,509 for the realization of those gains. 143 00:05:15,889 --> 00:05:18,210 So one of the primary things that that 144 00:05:18,210 --> 00:05:20,790 I would encourage organizations to do is 145 00:05:21,330 --> 00:05:24,310 understand the problem that you're trying to solve. 146 00:05:25,264 --> 00:05:27,504 And as you're understanding that the problem that 147 00:05:27,504 --> 00:05:28,884 you're trying to solve, 148 00:05:29,345 --> 00:05:31,285 define what better is, 149 00:05:31,824 --> 00:05:33,524 and then look for partners 150 00:05:34,144 --> 00:05:36,165 that are willing to stand behind 151 00:05:37,185 --> 00:05:37,685 better 152 00:05:38,639 --> 00:05:39,699 rather than simply 153 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,819 deliver a capability that now all that responsibility 154 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,540 is on to that that physician organization 155 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:46,980 to implement, 156 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:50,980 integrate, and and ultimately change manage to success. 157 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,264 And I think that's been one of the 158 00:05:53,585 --> 00:05:55,845 major ways in which health care IT, 159 00:05:57,185 --> 00:05:59,264 for all the good it's done, has failed 160 00:05:59,264 --> 00:06:00,944 to deliver up to its promise. And if 161 00:06:00,944 --> 00:06:02,785 we look at at at the age of 162 00:06:02,785 --> 00:06:04,165 health care IT starting 163 00:06:04,625 --> 00:06:05,985 maybe in 2007, 164 00:06:05,985 --> 00:06:07,829 that's a good place because because that's right 165 00:06:07,829 --> 00:06:10,069 at the time of meaningful use. You see 166 00:06:10,069 --> 00:06:12,089 that we spent billions of dollars 167 00:06:13,029 --> 00:06:16,250 on on health care IT. We've created household 168 00:06:16,469 --> 00:06:17,289 name companies, 169 00:06:17,909 --> 00:06:20,469 and yet care delivery has not gotten any 170 00:06:20,469 --> 00:06:21,769 better in terms of outcomes, 171 00:06:22,454 --> 00:06:22,954 cost, 172 00:06:23,894 --> 00:06:24,394 access, 173 00:06:25,095 --> 00:06:27,915 or even job satisfaction for our physicians. 174 00:06:28,375 --> 00:06:29,595 And that accountability 175 00:06:30,214 --> 00:06:30,714 gap, 176 00:06:31,814 --> 00:06:33,035 I think, is economically 177 00:06:33,654 --> 00:06:34,154 unsustainable 178 00:06:35,509 --> 00:06:38,250 and probably ethically and morally unsustainable. 179 00:06:39,110 --> 00:06:40,330 So I would encourage 180 00:06:42,470 --> 00:06:43,370 CIOs, CMOs, 181 00:06:43,750 --> 00:06:47,529 CEOs, CFOs, the that that entire buying suite 182 00:06:48,175 --> 00:06:49,314 to think about 183 00:06:49,775 --> 00:06:52,275 how will this solution be accountable 184 00:06:53,295 --> 00:06:55,455 to the care teams that are on the 185 00:06:55,455 --> 00:06:58,754 front lines and ultimately the communities they serve. 186 00:06:59,215 --> 00:07:02,189 Yeah. You mentioned the the journey piece of 187 00:07:02,189 --> 00:07:04,269 this. Right? The patient journey and and certainly 188 00:07:04,269 --> 00:07:06,029 that the clinician is connected to as to 189 00:07:06,029 --> 00:07:06,849 that as well. 190 00:07:07,229 --> 00:07:08,589 And and I know that you've talked quite 191 00:07:08,589 --> 00:07:10,269 a bit about the the holistic piece of 192 00:07:10,269 --> 00:07:13,149 this too. Right? Understanding organizations and patients, not 193 00:07:13,149 --> 00:07:14,910 just from from a clinical perspective, which is 194 00:07:14,910 --> 00:07:18,004 the main focus, but also behaviorally, financially, etcetera. 195 00:07:18,064 --> 00:07:19,285 That's really, really key. 196 00:07:19,904 --> 00:07:21,904 From the partnership perspective then, what you just 197 00:07:21,904 --> 00:07:24,384 touched on, how can the right partnerships and 198 00:07:24,384 --> 00:07:26,404 specifically technology then enable 199 00:07:27,105 --> 00:07:30,225 that holistic view and essentially improve outcomes as 200 00:07:30,225 --> 00:07:30,725 well? 201 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:33,520 So so, you know, if you think about 202 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:35,500 what is it that we want to do, 203 00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:36,560 we want to 204 00:07:37,259 --> 00:07:38,080 increase access. 205 00:07:38,779 --> 00:07:41,040 We want to give our providers 206 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:42,879 time and meaning 207 00:07:43,740 --> 00:07:45,279 and and insight 208 00:07:46,264 --> 00:07:48,824 and and I should say clinicians rather than 209 00:07:48,824 --> 00:07:49,324 providers. 210 00:07:49,944 --> 00:07:51,944 And then in addition to that, we wanna 211 00:07:51,944 --> 00:07:53,645 make sure that things are financially 212 00:07:54,105 --> 00:07:56,185 sustainable and viable. And so you start to 213 00:07:56,185 --> 00:07:58,504 think about those goals. And then you think 214 00:07:58,504 --> 00:07:59,004 about 215 00:07:59,625 --> 00:08:00,764 what is it that 216 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,540 technology and specifically, 217 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,020 agentic AI technology 218 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,560 are able to give us. I think one 219 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,680 of the things that agentic AI technology is 220 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,540 able to give us is 221 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:14,420 predictive 222 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:15,460 reactive 223 00:08:16,574 --> 00:08:17,074 knowledge. 224 00:08:17,454 --> 00:08:20,175 So if we start with knowledge of patients, 225 00:08:20,175 --> 00:08:22,014 and we know them by by their social 226 00:08:22,014 --> 00:08:24,495 determinants of health, their ZIP codes, their marital 227 00:08:24,495 --> 00:08:27,055 status, how many kids they have, what their 228 00:08:27,055 --> 00:08:28,754 job is. We understand, 229 00:08:29,535 --> 00:08:30,194 what their, 230 00:08:30,894 --> 00:08:33,610 insurance is. We understand them clinically. 231 00:08:34,549 --> 00:08:36,549 We understand all of these things. We can 232 00:08:36,549 --> 00:08:38,570 start to anticipate them behaviorally. 233 00:08:39,350 --> 00:08:41,610 And I think understanding our patients 234 00:08:41,910 --> 00:08:42,410 behaviorally 235 00:08:43,910 --> 00:08:45,289 will start to inform 236 00:08:46,105 --> 00:08:48,445 how we treat them, where we treat them. 237 00:08:48,585 --> 00:08:50,105 But at the same time, we need to 238 00:08:50,105 --> 00:08:52,424 understand our clinicians in the same way. We 239 00:08:52,424 --> 00:08:55,225 need to understand what their preferences are, how 240 00:08:55,225 --> 00:08:55,965 they treat. 241 00:08:56,745 --> 00:08:58,764 In the same way, we need to understand 242 00:08:58,904 --> 00:09:01,304 our financial partners, our payers in the same 243 00:09:01,304 --> 00:09:03,450 way. And if you start to think about 244 00:09:03,450 --> 00:09:06,170 these as as as almost interconnected gears, you 245 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:09,389 start to create a flywheel effect. So imagine 246 00:09:09,690 --> 00:09:10,190 a 247 00:09:11,129 --> 00:09:14,490 a patient that is in a a value 248 00:09:14,490 --> 00:09:18,024 based contract that that we understand clinically and 249 00:09:18,024 --> 00:09:18,524 financially 250 00:09:19,465 --> 00:09:21,544 makes an appointment. And yet we see that 251 00:09:21,544 --> 00:09:24,024 that appointment is three months away and at 252 00:09:24,024 --> 00:09:24,764 3PM. 253 00:09:25,065 --> 00:09:26,825 And we know that they are a single 254 00:09:26,825 --> 00:09:28,825 parent and that they work a nine to 255 00:09:28,825 --> 00:09:29,644 five job. 256 00:09:30,539 --> 00:09:31,279 Our anticipation 257 00:09:32,139 --> 00:09:34,860 of that person missing that appointment is gonna 258 00:09:34,860 --> 00:09:35,759 be pretty high. 259 00:09:36,299 --> 00:09:38,320 So we have to create interventions 260 00:09:38,940 --> 00:09:40,860 to make sure that that that that patient 261 00:09:40,860 --> 00:09:42,080 shows shows up 262 00:09:42,504 --> 00:09:45,384 and or find another time. So anticipating a 263 00:09:45,384 --> 00:09:47,324 propensity to keep keep an appointment. 264 00:09:47,784 --> 00:09:51,225 At the same time, understanding patient responsible, their 265 00:09:51,225 --> 00:09:53,725 propensity to pay. Are they able? Are they 266 00:09:53,944 --> 00:09:55,784 willing? Do they have knowledge of what they 267 00:09:55,784 --> 00:09:57,064 start to pay? So you start to think 268 00:09:57,064 --> 00:09:59,690 about those types of work flows. Based on 269 00:09:59,690 --> 00:10:01,690 what that appointment is, we can start to 270 00:10:01,690 --> 00:10:02,190 anticipate 271 00:10:03,289 --> 00:10:05,870 and do some pre charting for that physician 272 00:10:07,049 --> 00:10:09,289 about why this person is coming. So now 273 00:10:09,289 --> 00:10:11,549 now imagine that that clinical workflow 274 00:10:12,004 --> 00:10:14,804 where the MA and the physician prior to 275 00:10:14,804 --> 00:10:15,465 a visit 276 00:10:15,845 --> 00:10:17,605 have a session where where they're doing a 277 00:10:17,605 --> 00:10:19,365 huddle, and they're looking over the prechart and 278 00:10:19,365 --> 00:10:20,105 they're understanding, 279 00:10:20,485 --> 00:10:22,485 you know, why missus Smith is coming and 280 00:10:22,485 --> 00:10:24,404 what are the likely things that we're going 281 00:10:24,404 --> 00:10:25,144 to be seeing. 282 00:10:25,799 --> 00:10:29,080 Maybe based on the way that physician treats, 283 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:30,460 we can even anticipate 284 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,340 what types of tests they would run. 285 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,480 Based on that, we can reach out to 286 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,059 the payer and understand the types of documentation 287 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,539 that it was going to to to improve. 288 00:10:40,784 --> 00:10:43,764 All of these things are giving incremental time, 289 00:10:43,985 --> 00:10:45,845 insight, and value. These interconnected 290 00:10:46,225 --> 00:10:47,284 workflows of 291 00:10:48,065 --> 00:10:48,565 anticipating, 292 00:10:49,184 --> 00:10:51,584 is the visit going to happen? What's going 293 00:10:51,584 --> 00:10:53,345 to happen in the visit? How is that 294 00:10:53,345 --> 00:10:55,204 visit going to be valued and reimbursed? 295 00:10:55,940 --> 00:10:58,419 What types of tasks are going to be 296 00:10:58,419 --> 00:10:59,720 needed to create efficiencies 297 00:11:00,179 --> 00:11:02,419 that doctors shouldn't be doing, that shouldn't be 298 00:11:02,419 --> 00:11:05,399 happening in the exam room? And then safely 299 00:11:05,539 --> 00:11:06,839 doing those beforehand 300 00:11:07,745 --> 00:11:09,904 through the use of technology. And what's what's 301 00:11:09,904 --> 00:11:10,404 incredibly 302 00:11:10,784 --> 00:11:12,945 important to us is that that all of 303 00:11:12,945 --> 00:11:15,044 our solutions have a human in the loop 304 00:11:15,664 --> 00:11:16,884 because these technologies 305 00:11:17,424 --> 00:11:17,924 are 306 00:11:18,464 --> 00:11:20,804 they're prediction machines. They're betting machines 307 00:11:21,419 --> 00:11:23,980 in in a very real way. And if 308 00:11:23,980 --> 00:11:26,960 we don't put a high level, high discretion 309 00:11:27,019 --> 00:11:29,659 human in the loop, what we're pushing is 310 00:11:29,659 --> 00:11:32,539 all of that editing, auditing, and insight onto 311 00:11:32,539 --> 00:11:35,019 the clinician, and the clinician should be focused 312 00:11:35,019 --> 00:11:37,615 on the patient. And so it is a 313 00:11:38,175 --> 00:11:40,274 both a a safety lever, 314 00:11:40,975 --> 00:11:43,475 but it is also an efficiency lever 315 00:11:44,254 --> 00:11:47,154 and a burden lever. So we're pulling 316 00:11:47,615 --> 00:11:50,654 not only time off that physician, we're pulling 317 00:11:50,654 --> 00:11:51,154 meaningless 318 00:11:51,629 --> 00:11:54,029 task off that position. And what we're really 319 00:11:54,029 --> 00:11:55,330 building is a trust 320 00:11:55,790 --> 00:11:58,049 type and an extended team, 321 00:11:58,910 --> 00:12:01,250 and yet that team is largely technology. 322 00:12:02,750 --> 00:12:05,470 They start to think about the power of 323 00:12:05,470 --> 00:12:05,970 that. 324 00:12:06,444 --> 00:12:08,304 Now all of a sudden, you can have 325 00:12:09,245 --> 00:12:10,944 a vendor contract relationship 326 00:12:12,044 --> 00:12:13,584 that takes responsibility 327 00:12:14,684 --> 00:12:17,565 for a large subsection of the chores. And 328 00:12:17,565 --> 00:12:19,404 I define chores as things in health care 329 00:12:19,404 --> 00:12:20,544 that that that doctors, 330 00:12:21,039 --> 00:12:23,120 MAs shouldn't be doing, things that shouldn't be 331 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:24,720 happening at the front desk or in the 332 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:25,759 clinic. Imagine, 333 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,299 an entity that can take a large responsibility 334 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:30,660 for those chores, 335 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,679 and their commitment back to that organization is 336 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,259 we're going to move access by x percent. 337 00:12:36,785 --> 00:12:38,804 We're going to to increase 338 00:12:39,264 --> 00:12:39,764 position 339 00:12:40,225 --> 00:12:43,605 engagement by y percent. We're going to increase 340 00:12:43,745 --> 00:12:44,245 productivity 341 00:12:45,024 --> 00:12:46,965 by by by z percent. 342 00:12:47,424 --> 00:12:49,764 And finally, we're going to increase 343 00:12:50,144 --> 00:12:50,644 organizational 344 00:12:51,184 --> 00:12:51,684 profitability. 345 00:12:52,250 --> 00:12:54,570 We're going to create $20,000,000 346 00:12:54,570 --> 00:12:55,309 in EBITDA. 347 00:12:56,089 --> 00:12:58,110 And and if we don't, 348 00:12:58,490 --> 00:12:59,629 this is our financial, 349 00:13:00,329 --> 00:13:02,570 component of this. It goes well beyond this 350 00:13:02,570 --> 00:13:04,589 notion of of of SLAs 351 00:13:05,534 --> 00:13:08,355 into a true shared partnership model 352 00:13:09,054 --> 00:13:12,514 where your technology vendor, again, isn't 353 00:13:12,975 --> 00:13:14,674 just giving you a tool. 354 00:13:15,934 --> 00:13:18,174 They are walking the journey with you to 355 00:13:18,174 --> 00:13:20,254 make sure that you get the value from 356 00:13:20,254 --> 00:13:23,069 that. I think that is a sea change 357 00:13:23,069 --> 00:13:23,809 in thinking 358 00:13:24,669 --> 00:13:25,889 that will quickly 359 00:13:27,309 --> 00:13:27,809 disrupt 360 00:13:28,350 --> 00:13:30,049 the, you know, this 361 00:13:30,909 --> 00:13:33,470 collection of mushrooms after a rain in terms 362 00:13:33,470 --> 00:13:36,274 of all of these different technology companies. There's 363 00:13:36,274 --> 00:13:38,054 a new one every day. 364 00:13:38,835 --> 00:13:40,434 I end up doing the same thing that 365 00:13:40,434 --> 00:13:41,735 someone else is doing, 366 00:13:42,274 --> 00:13:44,455 and yet none of them, I think, are 367 00:13:44,514 --> 00:13:46,674 standing up to, and this is how we 368 00:13:46,674 --> 00:13:47,735 make your organization 369 00:13:48,674 --> 00:13:49,174 better, 370 00:13:49,709 --> 00:13:51,730 more joyful, and more profitable. 371 00:13:52,350 --> 00:13:54,350 And that's the sea change thinking that I'm 372 00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:56,429 waiting for. So the human in the loop 373 00:13:56,429 --> 00:13:58,029 piece that you've mentioned, which is really, really 374 00:13:58,029 --> 00:13:59,949 important, you highlighted some of the benefits of 375 00:13:59,949 --> 00:14:02,189 actually following that approach and making sure that 376 00:14:02,189 --> 00:14:03,524 there is a human in the loop and 377 00:14:03,605 --> 00:14:06,165 you have the human expertise shared right and 378 00:14:06,165 --> 00:14:07,705 what the benefits it brings. 379 00:14:08,165 --> 00:14:11,465 How important is that approach then to scalability? 380 00:14:12,485 --> 00:14:15,705 Right? Is it a necessary component for organization 381 00:14:15,925 --> 00:14:18,504 to be able to support adoption at scale? 382 00:14:19,490 --> 00:14:22,309 Think so. Because a few things. One is 383 00:14:23,169 --> 00:14:23,909 our doctors 384 00:14:24,850 --> 00:14:27,350 are tired of being blamed 385 00:14:28,049 --> 00:14:28,549 for 386 00:14:29,649 --> 00:14:32,529 the lack of value realization around health care 387 00:14:32,529 --> 00:14:33,029 IT. 388 00:14:33,495 --> 00:14:34,554 And many times, 389 00:14:35,014 --> 00:14:37,995 the story that comes through, health care IT 390 00:14:38,134 --> 00:14:39,914 is this story around 391 00:14:40,774 --> 00:14:43,174 if only the doctors would do this, if 392 00:14:43,174 --> 00:14:44,075 only physicians, 393 00:14:45,014 --> 00:14:47,830 had better change management. And it's why do 394 00:14:47,830 --> 00:14:50,309 we need physician change management? It's because we're 395 00:14:50,309 --> 00:14:51,370 asking physicians 396 00:14:52,629 --> 00:14:54,490 to drive different behavior 397 00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:58,629 rather than finding technology that's meeting physicians where 398 00:14:58,629 --> 00:15:01,245 they are. And in order for technology to 399 00:15:01,245 --> 00:15:03,264 to meet physicians where they 400 00:15:03,644 --> 00:15:05,325 are, I think the human in the loop 401 00:15:05,325 --> 00:15:08,065 component is is absolutely critical. 402 00:15:08,684 --> 00:15:10,785 Let's not make our clinicians 403 00:15:11,709 --> 00:15:12,529 QA agents. 404 00:15:12,990 --> 00:15:15,809 Let's not make the our our our 405 00:15:16,269 --> 00:15:19,870 physicians editors and auditors and cut and pasters 406 00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:21,709 and all of these other things that we 407 00:15:21,709 --> 00:15:24,610 continue to do. What's interesting for me 408 00:15:25,105 --> 00:15:26,485 is that before 409 00:15:26,785 --> 00:15:27,285 I 410 00:15:27,985 --> 00:15:29,044 tech optimize 411 00:15:29,345 --> 00:15:30,245 any workflow 412 00:15:31,825 --> 00:15:33,745 in my company, there's a few things that 413 00:15:33,745 --> 00:15:34,485 we do. 414 00:15:35,264 --> 00:15:37,600 One is we say, okay. How is this 415 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,679 going to be better for patients? And we 416 00:15:39,679 --> 00:15:41,120 have to be able to describe that in 417 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,420 a sentence. It can't be 418 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:43,700 a a 419 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,160 a war and peace paragraph. I wanna know 420 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,080 really plainly. This is gonna be better for 421 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,120 patients because 422 00:15:49,985 --> 00:15:51,845 this is gonna be better for the clinician 423 00:15:52,065 --> 00:15:55,345 experience because what's interesting is aligning those two 424 00:15:55,345 --> 00:15:57,745 things is not very hard. The third one 425 00:15:57,745 --> 00:15:59,825 is the magic trick, and this is going 426 00:15:59,825 --> 00:16:02,805 to create financial value for the organization 427 00:16:03,264 --> 00:16:03,665 because 428 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:06,500 and if we can do those three things, 429 00:16:06,879 --> 00:16:09,059 then we know this is something that needs 430 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:09,940 a technological 431 00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:10,899 intervention 432 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,480 and and warrants it and and will create 433 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,559 value from it. The other aspect of it 434 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:18,259 is before we do a technological 435 00:16:19,884 --> 00:16:20,384 intervention, 436 00:16:20,845 --> 00:16:23,184 we want to understand the context. 437 00:16:24,044 --> 00:16:25,985 I see a lot of health care IT 438 00:16:26,204 --> 00:16:29,504 that has capability without context. And I think 439 00:16:29,644 --> 00:16:30,704 clinical context, 440 00:16:31,084 --> 00:16:34,125 technical context, and emotional context need to be 441 00:16:34,125 --> 00:16:35,159 built into your work 442 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:37,740 flows in a caregiving 443 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:38,620 industry. 444 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,879 So if we can create that context within 445 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:42,699 the workflow, 446 00:16:43,879 --> 00:16:46,919 then what's interesting is the human component that 447 00:16:46,919 --> 00:16:47,579 is left 448 00:16:48,225 --> 00:16:49,605 is highly discretionary 449 00:16:50,304 --> 00:16:51,684 and highly valuable. 450 00:16:52,384 --> 00:16:53,845 And so over time, 451 00:16:55,024 --> 00:16:57,204 what I used to do with 10 people, 452 00:16:57,825 --> 00:16:59,365 I do with half a person. 453 00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:02,740 But the value of that half a person 454 00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:03,940 is significantly 455 00:17:04,559 --> 00:17:05,059 higher 456 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:07,700 because everything that was nondiscretionary, 457 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:11,200 everything that was rule based, everything that you 458 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,299 could reasonably predict and assume 459 00:17:13,759 --> 00:17:15,779 has now been covered by the machine. 460 00:17:16,264 --> 00:17:18,825 And it's only that most critical piece that 461 00:17:18,825 --> 00:17:20,845 that human becomes an important, 462 00:17:21,784 --> 00:17:23,325 component of going forward. 463 00:17:23,865 --> 00:17:26,125 In the development process, 464 00:17:26,664 --> 00:17:29,544 humans are critical for for for reinforced learning 465 00:17:29,544 --> 00:17:30,605 through human feedback. 466 00:17:31,370 --> 00:17:34,670 You want to to speed quality and value 467 00:17:34,809 --> 00:17:38,509 in in any tech led system that reinforced 468 00:17:38,650 --> 00:17:40,809 learning through human feedback becomes a a a 469 00:17:40,809 --> 00:17:41,710 critical angle. 470 00:17:42,250 --> 00:17:42,750 Yeah. 471 00:17:43,315 --> 00:17:43,815 Joe, 472 00:17:44,275 --> 00:17:46,035 such a great conversation. Thank you so much 473 00:17:46,035 --> 00:17:47,474 for all of your insights. I I do 474 00:17:47,474 --> 00:17:49,315 wanna know again because you have such a 475 00:17:49,315 --> 00:17:52,215 such a great detailed and 10,000 foot overview 476 00:17:52,355 --> 00:17:53,654 combination of this. 477 00:17:54,275 --> 00:17:56,130 What are you what are you excited about 478 00:17:56,210 --> 00:17:57,410 for 2026? 479 00:17:57,410 --> 00:17:59,349 What are some of the shifts and trends 480 00:18:00,049 --> 00:18:03,109 that you're seeing that leaders should really prioritize? 481 00:18:03,329 --> 00:18:05,490 You meant you mentioned iGentic AI, which is 482 00:18:05,490 --> 00:18:06,470 going to be critical, 483 00:18:06,849 --> 00:18:08,289 but what are some of those things that 484 00:18:08,289 --> 00:18:11,035 that you're thinking that are important to really 485 00:18:11,035 --> 00:18:14,095 unlock the full value of AI and digital 486 00:18:14,475 --> 00:18:15,674 in 2026 487 00:18:15,674 --> 00:18:17,295 and and moving beyond that? 488 00:18:18,154 --> 00:18:20,315 I would go back a little bit to 489 00:18:20,315 --> 00:18:22,154 a couple of the concepts I I would 490 00:18:22,154 --> 00:18:23,295 talk about. So 491 00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:24,630 I think responsible 492 00:18:25,450 --> 00:18:25,950 is 493 00:18:26,769 --> 00:18:27,750 really critical. 494 00:18:28,369 --> 00:18:30,470 Safety built into workflows. 495 00:18:32,690 --> 00:18:35,029 The challenging thing about AI 496 00:18:35,490 --> 00:18:37,410 is as much as we believe that we're 497 00:18:37,410 --> 00:18:38,710 training the AI, 498 00:18:39,194 --> 00:18:41,934 the AI is training users equally. 499 00:18:43,034 --> 00:18:46,255 And as it gets better and that trust 500 00:18:46,394 --> 00:18:46,894 height 501 00:18:47,914 --> 00:18:48,414 increases, 502 00:18:50,954 --> 00:18:53,375 the rate of errors is gonna go down. 503 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,460 But the more we trust it, 504 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,579 the actual ability of a catastrophic 505 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:02,519 error is going to go up. And so 506 00:19:02,519 --> 00:19:05,019 how do we manage against the catastrophic 507 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:05,900 error 508 00:19:06,995 --> 00:19:09,634 when we trust the self driving car so 509 00:19:09,634 --> 00:19:10,134 much? 510 00:19:11,875 --> 00:19:14,195 And I think that that that so so 511 00:19:14,195 --> 00:19:14,934 so systems 512 00:19:15,235 --> 00:19:16,535 that have responsible 513 00:19:16,995 --> 00:19:17,495 checks 514 00:19:18,195 --> 00:19:20,855 in them, I think, are gonna become increasingly 515 00:19:22,589 --> 00:19:25,970 important. So so I would think about responsible 516 00:19:26,109 --> 00:19:28,210 safety checks built into these workflows 517 00:19:29,869 --> 00:19:30,849 that does that 518 00:19:31,549 --> 00:19:32,450 without making 519 00:19:32,990 --> 00:19:33,650 it a 520 00:19:34,029 --> 00:19:35,730 a dampener on the economic 521 00:19:36,845 --> 00:19:38,065 net benefit because 522 00:19:39,085 --> 00:19:42,945 health care dramatically needs, an economic net benefit 523 00:19:43,005 --> 00:19:45,565 from AI, which it hasn't gotten from so 524 00:19:45,565 --> 00:19:47,964 many other technologies. And I think that AI 525 00:19:47,964 --> 00:19:50,210 can do that. I think the second piece 526 00:19:50,210 --> 00:19:51,509 to to to reiterate 527 00:19:51,970 --> 00:19:52,710 a a bit 528 00:19:53,250 --> 00:19:54,309 is organizations 529 00:19:55,730 --> 00:19:57,109 need to demand accountability. 530 00:19:57,730 --> 00:19:59,190 So I will say that 531 00:19:59,889 --> 00:20:01,669 my company sees accountability 532 00:20:02,714 --> 00:20:03,855 as a differentiator 533 00:20:04,234 --> 00:20:05,615 and a market opportunity. 534 00:20:06,315 --> 00:20:08,575 I believe that if I take greater accountability, 535 00:20:08,794 --> 00:20:11,035 I will win more clients and and grow 536 00:20:11,035 --> 00:20:13,355 my business. And I believe that I have 537 00:20:13,355 --> 00:20:15,934 a moral obligation in serving the health care 538 00:20:16,075 --> 00:20:18,095 industry to to to do this. 539 00:20:18,849 --> 00:20:21,190 But it's really up to 540 00:20:22,049 --> 00:20:25,669 the CIO, the CEO, the CFO, the CMO, 541 00:20:26,609 --> 00:20:27,109 COO 542 00:20:27,809 --> 00:20:29,269 to demand accountability 543 00:20:30,769 --> 00:20:32,149 from their tool vendors 544 00:20:33,075 --> 00:20:36,694 and and and stop being the system integrator 545 00:20:37,554 --> 00:20:38,054 that 546 00:20:38,434 --> 00:20:39,494 makes excuses 547 00:20:40,994 --> 00:20:44,115 when technology doesn't deliver. Oh, it's because of 548 00:20:44,115 --> 00:20:44,855 our implementation, 549 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,680 our change management. Oh, we bought this from 550 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,519 this vendor and this from this vendor, and 551 00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:51,460 now they're arguing who's responsible. 552 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:53,220 Get beyond that 553 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,259 and create structures that demand participation 554 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:57,460 and accountability. 555 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,619 And if we focus on responsible 556 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,234 safety and we focus on accountability, 557 00:21:03,015 --> 00:21:05,994 the result should be time, meaning, and money. 558 00:21:07,174 --> 00:21:09,914 We should increase care delivery time 559 00:21:10,775 --> 00:21:12,554 while reducing work burden. 560 00:21:13,410 --> 00:21:15,650 By increasing care delivery time, we start to 561 00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:17,670 solve access in a meaningful way. 562 00:21:18,369 --> 00:21:18,869 Meaning, 563 00:21:19,490 --> 00:21:21,109 a big part of burnout 564 00:21:21,730 --> 00:21:23,809 is not just how much time we're asking 565 00:21:23,809 --> 00:21:26,465 our physicians to do, but but also the 566 00:21:26,465 --> 00:21:28,785 tasks that we're asking them to do. And, 567 00:21:28,785 --> 00:21:30,705 you know, the the boogeyman for a long 568 00:21:30,705 --> 00:21:32,485 time was clinical documentation. 569 00:21:33,265 --> 00:21:35,845 And yet we've largely fixed clinical documentation. 570 00:21:36,225 --> 00:21:39,265 Physician burnout has gotten much better. There are 571 00:21:39,265 --> 00:21:39,765 other 572 00:21:40,380 --> 00:21:44,140 meaningless tasks, whether it is inbox. AI is 573 00:21:44,140 --> 00:21:47,099 a great tool around inbox. Prescription refill, clinical 574 00:21:47,099 --> 00:21:48,240 documentation management, 575 00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:49,440 pre charting, 576 00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:51,980 all the order entry, all of these other 577 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:54,704 areas. So so let's take meaningless tasks. Let's 578 00:21:54,704 --> 00:21:57,125 take things below the license of people. 579 00:21:57,585 --> 00:22:00,144 And what's interesting is I'm a firm believer 580 00:22:00,144 --> 00:22:02,065 that if you get time and meaning right, 581 00:22:02,065 --> 00:22:04,325 you find ways to increase money. 582 00:22:04,865 --> 00:22:05,365 And 583 00:22:05,825 --> 00:22:07,744 there was a time that that doing the 584 00:22:07,744 --> 00:22:09,285 right thing was an imperative. 585 00:22:09,829 --> 00:22:11,589 Right now, doing the right thing in health 586 00:22:11,589 --> 00:22:13,589 care seems to be a luxury unless we're 587 00:22:13,589 --> 00:22:16,009 able to create financial value for these organizations. 588 00:22:16,789 --> 00:22:18,630 So that's what I would think about in 589 00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:22,569 in in '26 and hopefully '27, 2830. 590 00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:23,930 I think these are timeless. 591 00:22:24,585 --> 00:22:26,664 Yeah. I think that we'll all continue to 592 00:22:26,664 --> 00:22:29,464 get better in how we deliver it, and 593 00:22:29,464 --> 00:22:31,944 that's what I'm passionate about today. I want 594 00:22:31,944 --> 00:22:32,605 to make 595 00:22:33,144 --> 00:22:34,924 health care better at scale. 596 00:22:35,384 --> 00:22:38,524 I want to make our patients feel known 597 00:22:38,825 --> 00:22:41,380 as they come in the door. I wanna 598 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:43,539 make treatment specific 599 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,759 to that patient and that physician and yet 600 00:22:47,759 --> 00:22:50,880 do it in a scalable, replicable way that 601 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,440 makes health care easier to get and more 602 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:53,940 affordable. 603 00:22:54,835 --> 00:22:56,914 Yeah. That's certainly a goal, to keep in 604 00:22:56,914 --> 00:22:58,835 mind beyond the 2026 605 00:22:58,835 --> 00:23:01,154 as you pointed out. Very, very crucial. Joel, 606 00:23:01,154 --> 00:23:02,434 thanks so much for your time and insights 607 00:23:02,434 --> 00:23:04,434 today. What a fantastic conversation. Thanks for being 608 00:23:04,434 --> 00:23:07,210 here. Thank you, Lucas. Enjoyed it. Great to 609 00:23:07,210 --> 00:23:08,410 have you. We also want to thank our 610 00:23:08,410 --> 00:23:10,410 podcast sponsor IKS Health. You can tune in 611 00:23:10,410 --> 00:23:13,049 to more podcasts from Becker's Healthcare by visiting 612 00:23:13,049 --> 00:23:16,750 our podcast page at bekkershospitalreview.com.