1 00:00:00,345 --> 00:00:02,715 - This is Laura Dedo with the Becker's Healthcare Podcast. 2 00:00:03,295 --> 00:00:04,715 I'm thrilled today to be joined by Dr. 3 00:00:04,845 --> 00:00:06,795 Tarun Kaur, senior Vice President 4 00:00:06,795 --> 00:00:09,075 and Chief Transformation Officer at Virtual Health. 5 00:00:09,375 --> 00:00:11,635 Dr. Kaur, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. 6 00:00:12,695 --> 00:00:13,715 - Hi. Thank you very much, Laura. 7 00:00:13,875 --> 00:00:15,715 A pleasure to be here with you and with the audience. 8 00:00:16,855 --> 00:00:18,315 - Now, I know we've got a lot to talk about, 9 00:00:18,375 --> 00:00:20,475 and I'm excited to learn more about your 10 00:00:20,535 --> 00:00:22,355 transformation portfolio at vir. 11 00:00:22,495 --> 00:00:24,195 But before we dive into my questions, 12 00:00:24,215 --> 00:00:25,275 can you tell me a little bit more 13 00:00:25,275 --> 00:00:26,435 about yourself and your background? 14 00:00:28,315 --> 00:00:30,715 - Absolutely. So to Kaur tk for short, 15 00:00:30,975 --> 00:00:33,035 I'm an internal medicine hospitalist by training. 16 00:00:33,655 --> 00:00:37,795 Um, and, uh, I'll just say it's, it's, if I had probably had 17 00:00:37,795 --> 00:00:40,035 to look back 20 years ago when I started this journey, 18 00:00:40,115 --> 00:00:42,475 I would've never planned this journey out, uh, on purpose. 19 00:00:42,665 --> 00:00:43,755 It's one of those things where 20 00:00:44,555 --> 00:00:45,635 wherever you go, there you are. 21 00:00:46,295 --> 00:00:49,035 So I, um, I've had opportunities to, 22 00:00:49,215 --> 00:00:50,795 to be a working hospitalist. 23 00:00:51,385 --> 00:00:53,835 I've, uh, had roles inside of our informatics team. 24 00:00:54,515 --> 00:00:55,955 I was actually the chief medical officer 25 00:00:56,015 --> 00:00:57,475 of our, our medical group. 26 00:00:57,795 --> 00:00:59,715 I had a stint in population health. 27 00:01:00,375 --> 00:01:03,475 And then in 2019, I was asked to take on digital health 28 00:01:03,575 --> 00:01:04,595 as a stretch assignment. 29 00:01:05,575 --> 00:01:08,195 And, uh, the best career advice I can give to anyone is, 30 00:01:08,195 --> 00:01:09,795 it's always better to be lucky than good 31 00:01:09,795 --> 00:01:12,675 because March, 2020 comes along, uh, 32 00:01:12,765 --> 00:01:16,675 covid pandemic accelerates digital health in a way we could 33 00:01:16,675 --> 00:01:18,035 have never even fathom. 34 00:01:18,455 --> 00:01:23,165 So, um, as such, uh, we at ua, which is in the southern part 35 00:01:23,165 --> 00:01:26,005 of New Jersey, just right on that same latitude 36 00:01:26,005 --> 00:01:28,935 as Philadelphia, uh, uh, we, um, 37 00:01:28,955 --> 00:01:30,695 we created a digital transformation office right, 38 00:01:30,695 --> 00:01:32,015 coming out of the second wave of covid. 39 00:01:32,595 --> 00:01:35,775 And, um, glad to share more about our, our, 40 00:01:35,835 --> 00:01:37,215 our office and our portfolio. 41 00:01:39,235 --> 00:01:41,045 - Well, fantastic. That's great to hear it 42 00:01:41,045 --> 00:01:42,805 and absolutely looking forward to it. 43 00:01:42,865 --> 00:01:44,485 So, will you tell me a little bit about 44 00:01:44,485 --> 00:01:45,765 that transformation portfolio? 45 00:01:45,905 --> 00:01:48,205 What's unique about it in your program at Virtua? 46 00:01:49,925 --> 00:01:53,105 - So, the reason we created a digital transformation office 47 00:01:54,245 --> 00:01:55,345 was to, 48 00:01:55,895 --> 00:01:58,985 because we, we were recognizing, my goodness, look at this 49 00:01:59,885 --> 00:02:02,515 astounding rate of change that occurred 50 00:02:02,935 --> 00:02:05,715 during the first couple ways of, of the pandemic. 51 00:02:06,675 --> 00:02:07,915 I remember there was this headline in, 52 00:02:07,915 --> 00:02:09,475 in the New York Times talking about the adoption 53 00:02:09,475 --> 00:02:10,995 of telehealth in the United Kingdom, 54 00:02:11,015 --> 00:02:13,315 and they said 10 years of change in one week. 55 00:02:14,375 --> 00:02:15,755 And that's exactly what we saw. 56 00:02:15,755 --> 00:02:19,355 And I, I think a lot of organizations were seeing levels 57 00:02:19,535 --> 00:02:21,715 of change that they had never anticipated before. 58 00:02:22,335 --> 00:02:24,915 And the question we, we knew that the pen, 59 00:02:25,015 --> 00:02:27,395 so the pendulum never swings back to the middle. 60 00:02:27,495 --> 00:02:29,515 It always tends to swing back to the other direction. 61 00:02:29,515 --> 00:02:33,315 So we knew that once the, some of the urgency 62 00:02:33,655 --> 00:02:36,595 of the pandemic were starting to would, would ease. 63 00:02:37,335 --> 00:02:39,075 We knew some of those transformative energies 64 00:02:39,075 --> 00:02:40,275 would start to ease as well. 65 00:02:40,295 --> 00:02:41,915 And people potentially could go 66 00:02:41,915 --> 00:02:42,995 back to doing it the old way. 67 00:02:44,565 --> 00:02:47,425 And we as such created a digital transformation office and, 68 00:02:47,425 --> 00:02:49,905 and took a model off of Silicon Valley 69 00:02:50,695 --> 00:02:52,345 incubator accelerator model, 70 00:02:53,695 --> 00:02:55,465 what we believe transformative things, 71 00:02:55,465 --> 00:02:57,505 especially digital transformative things can happen 72 00:02:57,975 --> 00:02:59,820 organically inside of an organization. 73 00:03:00,355 --> 00:03:01,695 But what would normally take two 74 00:03:01,695 --> 00:03:04,695 or three years to happen, we try to help accelerate 75 00:03:04,695 --> 00:03:06,135 that process and do it in six months. 76 00:03:07,075 --> 00:03:08,615 And, and the reason is, is 77 00:03:08,775 --> 00:03:11,415 'cause the operators are constantly having to put out fires. 78 00:03:11,955 --> 00:03:14,135 Uh, you know, today we're, we're recording this 79 00:03:14,135 --> 00:03:15,175 and there's a pretty, 80 00:03:15,175 --> 00:03:17,855 there's a pretty big breach happening at Change Healthcare. 81 00:03:18,445 --> 00:03:20,335 Well, if I'm running a transformation off 82 00:03:20,335 --> 00:03:22,695 or if I'm an operator, I gotta take care of that breach. 83 00:03:24,065 --> 00:03:25,605 And, and so there's always an opportunity 84 00:03:25,605 --> 00:03:26,765 for a fire to take over. 85 00:03:27,285 --> 00:03:30,125 A transformation office lets a group of people continue 86 00:03:30,125 --> 00:03:33,685 to move the transformation forward even when immediate 87 00:03:34,325 --> 00:03:35,845 emergencies come up, uh, and could 88 00:03:36,045 --> 00:03:37,125 otherwise distract people. 89 00:03:37,585 --> 00:03:39,645 And that's what we did. So, uh, 90 00:03:39,645 --> 00:03:40,845 that's the idea behind the office. 91 00:03:41,545 --> 00:03:44,525 The office does not own any form 92 00:03:44,525 --> 00:03:45,725 of transformation by itself. 93 00:03:45,725 --> 00:03:47,765 It always partners with an operating unit. 94 00:03:48,465 --> 00:03:49,565 We have a deep partnership 95 00:03:49,565 --> 00:03:51,005 with our information technology team. 96 00:03:51,485 --> 00:03:52,965 'cause we need, we need the digital 97 00:03:53,075 --> 00:03:54,685 underpinnings to get it done. 98 00:03:55,625 --> 00:03:57,885 And then the other piece of the transformation portfolio, 99 00:03:57,885 --> 00:04:00,485 which, you know, we think is a little bit different than 100 00:04:00,485 --> 00:04:03,045 typical projects in a health system, 101 00:04:03,585 --> 00:04:05,885 is we don't rebalance it on an annual basis. 102 00:04:06,185 --> 00:04:08,845 We rebalance the portfolio two, three, 103 00:04:08,845 --> 00:04:09,885 sometimes four times a year 104 00:04:10,195 --> 00:04:12,965 because the needs of healthcare are 105 00:04:13,685 --> 00:04:14,845 changing faster than ever before. 106 00:04:15,145 --> 00:04:17,365 You can't be on annual planning cycles for this stuff. 107 00:04:17,465 --> 00:04:19,725 So I think that's where there's been some adaptability. 108 00:04:21,985 --> 00:04:23,545 - Absolutely. That's just so fascinating. 109 00:04:23,545 --> 00:04:25,345 And certainly as you mentioned, the pace 110 00:04:25,405 --> 00:04:28,305 and rate of change in healthcare sped up so much 111 00:04:28,305 --> 00:04:30,905 during the pandemic and it continues to seem like, you know, 112 00:04:30,905 --> 00:04:34,025 there is a, a pretty fast rate of change 113 00:04:34,055 --> 00:04:35,505 with new digital technologies 114 00:04:35,605 --> 00:04:37,705 and artificial intelligence and so many other things. 115 00:04:37,765 --> 00:04:40,665 And like you mentioned, needing to be nimble if there is a, 116 00:04:40,745 --> 00:04:41,905 a cybersecurity incident 117 00:04:41,965 --> 00:04:43,545 or something else impacting the system 118 00:04:43,725 --> 00:04:46,625 or a, a business partner, um, I can imagine 119 00:04:46,625 --> 00:04:49,225 that's just such a challenge when you look at, um, you know, 120 00:04:49,225 --> 00:04:51,945 being able to make that pivot and, 121 00:04:52,045 --> 00:04:55,705 and have teams go from what it used to be in or, and, 122 00:04:55,705 --> 00:04:57,425 and now into a space where you can 123 00:04:57,965 --> 00:04:59,625 be more nimble, make changes quickly. 124 00:04:59,695 --> 00:05:00,905 What does that take culturally 125 00:05:00,905 --> 00:05:02,265 and how do you make sure you keep 126 00:05:02,265 --> 00:05:04,225 that momentum going even if there's not a 127 00:05:04,225 --> 00:05:05,505 global pandemic going on? 128 00:05:07,015 --> 00:05:09,985 - Yeah, so, uh, boy, I wish I had a, uh, 129 00:05:10,025 --> 00:05:11,105 a simple answer for that. 130 00:05:11,205 --> 00:05:13,185 And I don't because I'm constantly learning. 131 00:05:14,065 --> 00:05:16,705 I think one of the important pieces though, 132 00:05:16,975 --> 00:05:18,785 that we've learned here is, 133 00:05:18,885 --> 00:05:21,105 and even though the word transformation is in my title, 134 00:05:21,845 --> 00:05:24,385 not everything can nor should be transformative 135 00:05:25,405 --> 00:05:30,305 and learning how to iterate, even if it's relatively simple 136 00:05:30,835 --> 00:05:32,345 iterations and, you know, say, well this, 137 00:05:32,345 --> 00:05:33,905 there's nothing transformative about that. 138 00:05:34,475 --> 00:05:36,425 There are learnings that come along the way. 139 00:05:36,725 --> 00:05:41,465 Uh, so I, you know, I'm, I'm a, a big, uh, believer in, 140 00:05:41,485 --> 00:05:45,345 in reader of Hendrick Berg's work from his time back at, uh, 141 00:05:45,345 --> 00:05:46,345 Spotify and Lego. 142 00:05:47,205 --> 00:05:49,785 And, you know, he, he talks about not building 143 00:05:50,325 --> 00:05:54,385 in a waterfall mechanism, but truly an agile methodology. 144 00:05:55,285 --> 00:05:57,605 And what we try to do here is someone 145 00:05:57,635 --> 00:05:58,925 says, I think I need a car. 146 00:05:59,265 --> 00:06:02,715 And we go back to them and say, for what? 147 00:06:03,975 --> 00:06:05,955 And that's a awkward question sometimes 148 00:06:05,975 --> 00:06:08,155 to ask in healthcare, especially if you're talking 149 00:06:08,155 --> 00:06:09,635 to other professionals, like physicians 150 00:06:09,635 --> 00:06:10,675 who are extremely well trained. 151 00:06:11,255 --> 00:06:13,615 Why do you need a car? I say, well, I want it 152 00:06:13,615 --> 00:06:14,895 to get from point A to point B. 153 00:06:15,515 --> 00:06:17,385 And you say, okay, well here's a skateboard. 154 00:06:17,385 --> 00:06:18,545 Give that a try for a week. 155 00:06:19,455 --> 00:06:21,595 And that's just a different way of thinking. 156 00:06:22,535 --> 00:06:24,435 But a couple things happen along the way. 157 00:06:24,735 --> 00:06:26,435 You learn sometimes that, well, 158 00:06:26,435 --> 00:06:27,635 maybe a skateboard isn't good enough, 159 00:06:27,635 --> 00:06:28,955 but maybe you can stop at a bicycle. 160 00:06:29,865 --> 00:06:31,405 And you know, what we say is, well, 161 00:06:31,405 --> 00:06:34,165 if you're designing transportation in, in the Netherlands, 162 00:06:34,585 --> 00:06:36,245 in Amsterdam specifically, 163 00:06:36,385 --> 00:06:37,445 you would always stop at a bicycle 164 00:06:37,725 --> 00:06:38,805 'cause there's nowhere to park the car. 165 00:06:40,055 --> 00:06:41,755 And it's just a different mindset 166 00:06:42,025 --> 00:06:44,155 because in in healthcare, you know, 167 00:06:44,385 --> 00:06:46,755 when we take the Hippocratic oath, we say premium numb, 168 00:06:46,755 --> 00:06:48,595 necessary, first of all, do no harm. 169 00:06:50,055 --> 00:06:53,545 That doesn't really sit well with a transformative mindset. 170 00:06:53,615 --> 00:06:55,465 It's only if you're making mistakes 171 00:06:55,895 --> 00:06:56,905 that you learn something. 172 00:06:56,965 --> 00:06:59,025 And so what we had to find in balance is 173 00:07:00,055 --> 00:07:02,795 we do make mistakes, but we will make sure we are safe. 174 00:07:03,455 --> 00:07:05,115 Safety and, and learning 175 00:07:05,295 --> 00:07:07,075 or making mistakes are two different things. 176 00:07:07,215 --> 00:07:09,555 We can be safe and still make mistakes as we learn. 177 00:07:09,935 --> 00:07:11,275 And I think that that's the mindset 178 00:07:11,335 --> 00:07:12,515 and the cultureship change that, 179 00:07:12,705 --> 00:07:15,275 that we we're still going under here at Virtual. 180 00:07:17,075 --> 00:07:18,085 - That makes a lot of sense. 181 00:07:18,105 --> 00:07:19,445 And you know, I love that analogy 182 00:07:19,465 --> 00:07:21,325 and the way you explained it in thinking about 183 00:07:21,325 --> 00:07:24,285 transformation and understanding, you know, what needs 184 00:07:24,285 --> 00:07:26,965 to be iterative and how you can really approach some 185 00:07:26,965 --> 00:07:28,405 of those things versus some 186 00:07:28,405 --> 00:07:29,725 of the bigger transformation as well. 187 00:07:30,275 --> 00:07:31,885 What are some of your top priorities 188 00:07:31,885 --> 00:07:32,925 over the next 12 months? 189 00:07:33,115 --> 00:07:35,645 What do you have top of mind and what are you focused on? 190 00:07:37,105 --> 00:07:39,965 - We manage our portfolio in, in domains. 191 00:07:39,965 --> 00:07:44,185 So we have consumer financial journey, digital doors, 192 00:07:44,765 --> 00:07:46,945 uh, alternative term is digital front doors. 193 00:07:47,005 --> 00:07:48,905 I'm not a big fan of the term digital front door. 194 00:07:48,905 --> 00:07:49,905 When's the last time you went to the 195 00:07:49,905 --> 00:07:50,785 front door of your own house? 196 00:07:51,645 --> 00:07:54,105 Uh, so I think you have multiple doors into a, 197 00:07:54,105 --> 00:07:55,265 in a house you should have multiple 198 00:07:55,265 --> 00:07:56,345 doors into your health system. 199 00:07:57,255 --> 00:07:59,745 What I would say if, you know, with all of our, 200 00:08:00,165 --> 00:08:03,865 and I would, I be careful here, I sometimes say projects, 201 00:08:03,865 --> 00:08:05,345 but in reality it's products. 202 00:08:05,685 --> 00:08:08,585 And that's an entire mindset shift in, in healthcare. 203 00:08:09,045 --> 00:08:10,225 But within our products, 204 00:08:10,405 --> 00:08:13,425 if I just talk about three global themes, 205 00:08:14,245 --> 00:08:17,065 we are talking about digital resiliency, 206 00:08:17,895 --> 00:08:19,385 digital outcomes. 207 00:08:19,925 --> 00:08:23,105 And perhaps most important right now is digital access. 208 00:08:23,805 --> 00:08:26,625 Uh, there is an access crisis in the United States 209 00:08:27,805 --> 00:08:30,385 and uh, it's not gonna go away for the next 10 years. 210 00:08:30,725 --> 00:08:33,905 And so if we do not come up with alternative ways 211 00:08:33,905 --> 00:08:37,225 of thinking about this, it's gonna be a rough 10 years. 212 00:08:39,025 --> 00:08:40,185 - I think that's such a great point. 213 00:08:40,245 --> 00:08:42,585 And definitely, you know, looking at, as you mentioned, 214 00:08:42,585 --> 00:08:45,185 trying to solve some of those big problems, big challenges, 215 00:08:45,215 --> 00:08:46,345 whether it's access 216 00:08:46,725 --> 00:08:49,865 or other issues using some of the digital technologies in, 217 00:08:49,865 --> 00:08:53,785 in places available, um, I really, you know, like you said, 218 00:08:53,785 --> 00:08:55,565 think that it's so paramount 219 00:08:55,565 --> 00:08:57,765 and can certainly make a big difference, difference 220 00:08:57,765 --> 00:08:59,045 for the communities that you serve. 221 00:08:59,585 --> 00:09:02,005 Is there anything that you're doing now looking ahead that, 222 00:09:02,265 --> 00:09:04,365 um, you really feel like is going to be helpful 223 00:09:04,465 --> 00:09:07,325 and beneficial, um, as you're making that transition 224 00:09:07,325 --> 00:09:09,965 and really ensuring that you've got digital health access 225 00:09:10,025 --> 00:09:11,965 and, and can improve that for 226 00:09:12,745 --> 00:09:14,205 the whole community that you serve? 227 00:09:15,795 --> 00:09:17,645 - Well, you know, I think this is one of those, uh, 228 00:09:17,645 --> 00:09:19,165 an opportunity, one of those learnings. 229 00:09:19,225 --> 00:09:20,845 We, um, we came along the way 230 00:09:21,145 --> 00:09:23,605 and you remember I asked, I said about you asked, 231 00:09:23,605 --> 00:09:24,685 someone says, I want a car. 232 00:09:24,715 --> 00:09:26,685 It's like, to do what I, 233 00:09:27,085 --> 00:09:28,485 I think a lesson we've learned along the way. 234 00:09:28,485 --> 00:09:31,245 We've, we've had a lot of success with online scheduling. 235 00:09:31,345 --> 00:09:33,285 We have really substantial numbers 236 00:09:33,545 --> 00:09:35,045 of online scheduling appointments 237 00:09:35,045 --> 00:09:36,245 that occur in the organization. 238 00:09:36,345 --> 00:09:38,885 And if you think about all the phone calls that are saved, 239 00:09:39,075 --> 00:09:41,765 both from the convenience to the patient, consumer, 240 00:09:41,905 --> 00:09:45,965 but also to the operators, uh, the operations team, that 241 00:09:45,965 --> 00:09:47,525 that can be avoided because of digital scheduling. 242 00:09:48,265 --> 00:09:50,685 But I actually looking back 243 00:09:50,705 --> 00:09:53,045 and kind of realizing, you know what, maybe we are, 244 00:09:53,225 --> 00:09:57,415 we didn't ask enough of to do what I didn't ask enough of 245 00:09:57,415 --> 00:09:58,895 what do you want the online schedule to do? 246 00:09:58,915 --> 00:10:02,825 And so for example, way we've been thinking about it is 247 00:10:03,105 --> 00:10:05,655 patients, do they really want an appointment? 248 00:10:06,045 --> 00:10:08,135 Does anyone really want an appointment? 249 00:10:08,675 --> 00:10:10,215 And I think, yes, there are some people 250 00:10:10,215 --> 00:10:11,735 who absolutely just want an appointment, 251 00:10:11,735 --> 00:10:13,735 but most people actually just want an 252 00:10:13,735 --> 00:10:15,665 answer to their problem. 253 00:10:16,335 --> 00:10:18,185 They're willing to make an appointment 254 00:10:18,365 --> 00:10:20,425 as a mechanism to get the answer. 255 00:10:21,605 --> 00:10:24,985 Are there other ways we can get them their answer without 256 00:10:24,985 --> 00:10:26,065 them having to have an appointment? 257 00:10:26,685 --> 00:10:29,505 And if we are talking about scarcity of resources 258 00:10:30,325 --> 00:10:34,625 and our clinicians are probably our most scarce and, and, 259 00:10:35,125 --> 00:10:36,985 and, and precious resource, 260 00:10:38,425 --> 00:10:40,435 does every question need an appointment to get answered 261 00:10:40,775 --> 00:10:42,235 or are there other ways we can do that? 262 00:10:42,235 --> 00:10:43,715 And that's where we were talking, we're thinking 263 00:10:43,715 --> 00:10:45,035 through some of the digital tools, et cetera. 264 00:10:46,415 --> 00:10:49,475 You know, the reality though is, is that the structure of 265 00:10:49,575 --> 00:10:52,825 how billing works is going to have 266 00:10:52,825 --> 00:10:54,305 to be looked at differently. 267 00:10:55,375 --> 00:10:58,865 What are, you know, what are consumers comfort levels 268 00:10:59,005 --> 00:11:00,905 of getting their answers through digital means? 269 00:11:01,535 --> 00:11:03,385 When is something appropriate for a digital answer 270 00:11:03,385 --> 00:11:06,745 and when is something appropriate for an analog answer when, 271 00:11:06,765 --> 00:11:08,865 you know, meaning in person with your clinician? 272 00:11:09,545 --> 00:11:11,625 I think those are all the things we're trying to solve for. 273 00:11:12,525 --> 00:11:13,585 And uh, you know, 274 00:11:13,585 --> 00:11:15,545 I think we just recognize if you look at the numbers, 275 00:11:15,645 --> 00:11:18,025 the population numbers in the United States, 276 00:11:19,415 --> 00:11:21,035 you're not gonna recruit your way out of this problem. 277 00:11:21,645 --> 00:11:23,795 We're all competing to have clinicians 278 00:11:24,335 --> 00:11:27,235 and the pipeline will just not come fast enough. 279 00:11:27,735 --> 00:11:29,035 So we're going to have 280 00:11:29,035 --> 00:11:31,115 to think about other ways of doing this. 281 00:11:32,695 --> 00:11:34,755 - That's a really excellent point. Thank you so much. 282 00:11:34,935 --> 00:11:36,675 Now before we wrap up here, I'm wondering, 283 00:11:36,675 --> 00:11:38,595 given everything we've talked about looking at 284 00:11:38,975 --> 00:11:42,275 transformation, digital technologies, access to care, 285 00:11:42,535 --> 00:11:44,835 how do you anticipate your role in teams will change 286 00:11:45,375 --> 00:11:46,955 in the next year and beyond? 287 00:11:48,465 --> 00:11:49,835 - Yeah, we think about this a lot. 288 00:11:50,235 --> 00:11:54,295 I, um, you know, I, I think we we're spending a lot 289 00:11:54,295 --> 00:11:57,335 of time here as mentioned we were a digital transformation 290 00:11:57,335 --> 00:11:59,335 office, so it's a little bit more of a centralized function 291 00:11:59,775 --> 00:12:02,935 function when we started, what I'd love to see is more 292 00:12:02,935 --> 00:12:05,375 of a federated model or approach. 293 00:12:06,035 --> 00:12:08,865 And, and that meaning like for example, 294 00:12:08,865 --> 00:12:10,825 when Excel first came out, yeah, 295 00:12:10,825 --> 00:12:12,385 the finance people use it a lot. 296 00:12:13,935 --> 00:12:16,355 You, everyone uses Excel across an organization. 297 00:12:16,355 --> 00:12:19,385 You don't say, well, only finance gets to use Excel. Right? 298 00:12:19,385 --> 00:12:21,735 It's just, it's just not the way the world works. 299 00:12:22,535 --> 00:12:25,455 I think similarly around digital, while there have 300 00:12:25,455 --> 00:12:28,295 to be guardrails around digital guardrails 301 00:12:28,295 --> 00:12:31,375 around artificial intelligence, how do you get these tools 302 00:12:32,455 --> 00:12:34,865 into the hands of the front end users? 303 00:12:35,255 --> 00:12:38,785 Because that's where the true innovation occurs. Yes. 304 00:12:38,805 --> 00:12:41,705 You know, we have innovation labs where we experiment 305 00:12:42,915 --> 00:12:44,455 saying, I, you know, I put out there is 306 00:12:44,485 --> 00:12:48,095 that innovation without adoption is experimentation, 307 00:12:48,795 --> 00:12:52,175 but innovation with adoption is true transformation. 308 00:12:52,995 --> 00:12:55,815 And we have to spend a lot of time, we are spending a lot 309 00:12:55,815 --> 00:13:00,595 of time around literacy, digital literacy, AI literacy, 310 00:13:01,205 --> 00:13:04,675 explaining to our, our colleagues, our employees, these 311 00:13:04,675 --> 00:13:05,675 what these tools can do. 312 00:13:06,205 --> 00:13:08,635 These is what these tools can't currently do 313 00:13:08,635 --> 00:13:10,875 and this is how these tools can be abused. 314 00:13:11,735 --> 00:13:13,595 And, uh, so I'm spending a lot 315 00:13:13,595 --> 00:13:14,915 of time on the education front 316 00:13:15,065 --> 00:13:17,835 because, you know, these tools are not gonna be able 317 00:13:17,835 --> 00:13:19,915 to be kept in a, in a bottle, the genie's out. 318 00:13:20,255 --> 00:13:21,515 So we want to educate the people 319 00:13:21,515 --> 00:13:23,435 around us in our organization how to 320 00:13:24,025 --> 00:13:25,195 effectively use the tools, 321 00:13:25,195 --> 00:13:27,515 but also be aware of where, 322 00:13:27,515 --> 00:13:29,675 where there could be shortcomings. 323 00:13:30,995 --> 00:13:32,445 - That makes a lot of sense. Dr. 324 00:13:32,595 --> 00:13:34,805 Kaur, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. 325 00:13:34,805 --> 00:13:36,845 This has been such a fascinating conversation 326 00:13:36,945 --> 00:13:38,245 and really covered a lot of ground, 327 00:13:38,305 --> 00:13:39,565 so I appreciate your time here 328 00:13:39,825 --> 00:13:41,765 and looking forward to connecting with you again soon. 329 00:13:42,765 --> 00:13:44,795 - Appreciate your time and uh, the questions 330 00:13:44,935 --> 00:13:46,075 and, uh, thank you to the audience 331 00:13:46,075 --> 00:13:47,795 for giving the opportunity to share of some 332 00:13:47,795 --> 00:13:49,395 of the things we're thinking about here at Virtua.